22 January 2011

Both Valid, but No Difference?

I thought it might be fun to post a short comparison between the Offertory prayers in the Ordinary of both forms of the one Roman Rite:

Extraordinary Form (English translation of the Latin prayers:)

THE OFFERING OF THE HOST

P: Receive, O Holy Father, almighty and eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Thine unworthy servant, offer unto Thee, my living and true God, for my countless sins, trespasses, and omissions; likewise for all here present, and for all faithful Christians, whether living or dead, that it may avail both me and them to salvation, unto life everlasting. Amen.

(blessing of water and preparation of chalice takes place at epistle side, prayer here omitted)

OFFERING OF THE CHALICE

P: We offer unto Thee, O Lord, the chalice of salvation, beseeching Thy clemency that it may ascend as a sweet odor before Thy divine majesty, for our own salvation, and for that of the whole world. Amen.

P: Humbled in mind, and contrite of heart, may we find favor with Thee, O Lord; and may the sacrifice we this day offer up be well pleasing to Thee, Who art our Lord and our God.

P: Come, Thou, the Sanctifier, God, almighty and everlasting: bless (+) this sacrifice which is prepared for the glory of Thy holy name.

(after the Lavabo:)

P: Recieve, O holy Trinity, this oblation offered up by us to Thee in memory of the passion, resurrection, and ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and in honor of blessed Mary, ever a virgin, of blessed John the Baptist, of the holy apostles Peter and Paul, of these, and of all the saints, that it may be available to their honor and to our salvation; and may they whose memory we celebrate on earth vouchsafe to intercede for us in heaven. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

__________________________

Ordinary Form

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.

All: Blessed be God for ever.

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.

All: Blessed be God for ever.


_______________________

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

Sweet!
The second "set" is quick, easy, guilt free--- no reparation needed Ahhh! Happiness and Love.

and don't forget! Blessed be God forever!

Latin Mass Only said...

What were they thinking when they made the most "Protestant sounding" mass? We must get back to the Latin mass. Today I was told by a priest that when I attended a Novus Ordo mass and the priest changed certain words that it wasn't a valid communion. This wouldn't happen in the Latin mass. Here is what he said:
This is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world / All: Have mercy on us.
"Repeated"
This is the Lamb of God, who wishes us to think out of the box. Who wants you to give of yourself, even if it is something that you don't like to do.
All: silence
(He was basically reiterating his homily.

StGuyFawkes said...

The difference has long been cited: the Tridentine emphasizes the bloodless sacrifice of Calvary and the unity of Christ's sacrifice with all the ancient sacrifices of God's Chosen people -- The Jews -- for whom a blood sacrifice had the power to expiate sin.

The Ordinary Form, on the other hand, emphasizes the people of God who are created by this worship and omits any reference to the sacrifice that created these people. The Novus Ordo Mass in effect, bleaches away any hint of blood and so it santitizes all the old Hebrew notions of blood and guilt. In a funny way the Novus Ordo clean, deodorized and anti-Jewish.

Ironically, only the traditional Mass keeps alive our link with the ancient Prophets and holy men of the Old Testement. And so, weirdly enough, it is the the lovers of the ancient Mass who are are called anti-Semitic, although in fact they have kept alive the particles of Jewishness in Catholic worship. By contrast, the Novus Ordo Catholics whose worship expunges all memory of the Jews, these are the Catholics who are called liberal hearted and tolerant.

So, "gey wissen" as they say in Yiddish. "Go figure."

Anonymous said...

The ordinary form is simple and beautiful-- it demonstrates the wisdom of the bishops in adopting the new liturgy some forty some years ago. Thank you for posting this.

Phelony Jones said...

I second that. Vanilla and salt free that ordinary form. So glad to be back to the Extraordinary.

thetimman said...

Latin Mass Only,

I get your point, but changing the words to the "This is the Lamb of God..." doesn't invalidate the consecration. The consecration formulae would have to be changed sufficiently to change the intent. To use a hopefully impossible example, "This is not my body". All the illicit ad libbing in the world, as bad as it would be, would not eliminate the real presence of Christ unless the "This is my Body" or "This is the chalice of my Blood" were changed.

Anonymous said...

"Thine?"
"avail?"
"Beseeching?"
"clemency?"
"oblation?"
"vouchsafe?"

Can we further alienate our youth anymore by using words that haven't been commonly used in a hundred years or more?

To prove the point - let us all use the words "Thee, thine, and thou" in ALL our written and spoken communications for a month, and report back in March on the looks from our family, friends, and especially teenagers and youth!

P.S. I still don't understand why we are reverting to translating Latin when we clearly could translate Jesus's own words in Aramaic, or the New Testament which was largely written in Greek. NONE of the New Testament was written in Latin!

thetimman said...

You have a point. I'll try to run this by the hordes of young people spilling out of the novus ordo this coming weekend. ;-)

YoungCatholicSTL said...

Out of curiosity, here's a breakdown of search results on STL Today (online stories go back 4-5 years, I believe):

Thine - 31 (Mostly religious stories)
Avail - 24,838 (First entry is for a concert at Pop's)
Beseech - 25 (First story involves teenagers)
Clemency - 86 (Mostly death penalty stories)
Oblation - 30 (Religious stories)
Vouchsafe - 3 (Second entry is a story about highschool football)

So I agree that a few of the words are not commonly used, but clearly the Post-Dispatch (the liberal think-tank that it is) believes the everyday reader should be able to understand those words.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon 09:14,
If you really wanted to "understand" wouldn't you be reading and asking 'why' rather than helplessly crying "I don't understand"?

pfinley said...

I agree with the anonymous person to this point - We DO get hung up on certain words over others , however, certain words can and do invoke certain thought processes, and as such, translations are and should be important -

That BEING SAID - we are a Latin Rite church - and if we are to have english, then it should be an ACCURATE translation of the Latin , which of course is a translation of the Aramaic, but, Latin, non the less

HSMom said...

Anon 11:36 Said...

"Thine?"
"avail?"
"Beseeching?"
"clemency?"
"oblation?"
"vouchsafe?"

Can we further alienate our youth anymore by using words that haven't been commonly used in a hundred years or more?"

* * *

Can we further underestimate the capabilities of our youth??

But IF these words demand that we stretch our minds and reach just a tad beyond the comfort zone of today's vernacular, is it not at least reasonable to do so for the Lord God Almighty, the Lord of Heaven and earth, in our worship of Him?

Anonymous said...

YCSTL - agree that "avail" does have far more use than these other obscure words. Interesting to note that the 4th Google entry shows "Avail" as a punk rock band out of Virginia, so 'yes,' it might be used fairly commonly among the youth with whom we supposedly want to connect.

Some interesting points here:

If you Google "Thine," it is used 4.9Million times. If you Google the far more commonly used word "Your," it is used 9.39 TRILLION times. (But, maybe the goal IS to use the most obscure word we can so that both old-timers and GOTH kids will connect with it!)

If you Google "vouchsafe," it found 616,000 hits. And here is the first entry of those, a definition taken from Mirian-Webster's Dictionary: "Give or grant (something) to (someone) in a gracious or condescending manner." Seriously - "CONDESCENDING???" Don't get me started on this one! And this word has a whopping 616,000 hits on Google. "Safeguard," btw, has 11.9 million hits. (For comparison's sake, "Geddy" has 1,020,000 hits.)

Best of all, the thesaurus found in Microsoft Word DOES NOT EVEN recognize "Vouchsafe" as a word! Nor does it recognize "Oblation" and "Thine" either! Perfect - lets find other arcane and obsolete words to further alienate the youth. Dost thou findeth that oddeth?

If you Google "Thine," it has 4.9 million hits. If you type in "Your," it has 9.29 TRILLION hits.

GOTH kids - art thou listening?

StGuyFawkes said...

Gentle Papists,

Words such as "thine", "avail", "beseech" and "oblation" are little used because so few experiences in life measure up to high and formal diction. These words lend a dignity and poetry to the Mass and grant to our Catholic young men the vocabulary to fashion a lover's tongue when he reaches an age to "beseech" his lady to marry him lest he make a final "oblation" of himself in some foreign war where pray he will fight and pray that his beloved offer her heart's "clemency" and find him worthy of her love.

t

These words are GREAT!!

thetimman said...

1,019,999 of those "Geddy" hits are from me.

flemdango said...

@ Anon 09:14 --

"NONE of the New Testament was written in Latin!"


None of the New Testament was written in English, either.

Just sayin'.

doughboy said...

st. guy fawkes just sold me on that last post vs. the embittered anonymous who doesn't think it appropriate that the Almighty 'condescend' to His own creation.

Anonymous said...

Nor was any of the New Testament written in Aramaic.

But in typing this I realize that the word 'testament' is really outdated. How often do you hear teens talking about a testament? And maybe the new translation should drop 'like' in about every 3rd word, perhaps with the 'Amen, Amen' being replaced by the far more understandable 'like, totally'.

Hieronymus -- er, Jerry

Jeremy said...

I agree that these words are just not good enough for our youth. In fact, the only way to reach them would be to have the priest text all mass-goers during the consecration. Kids these days don't talk anymore. I can see it now: "My bdy 4u." "Cup of my bld 4u" "God, ur big" "CU L8R Jesus, when U come"

Ehhh, maybe using the popular language isn't the best idea....

Like wow, like said...

I think we should use the teenage and some adult's vernacular of today some of which are not even words:: it is so fun, gynormous, he said like come here, you know, cool.

Must we set our standards so low?

Delena said...

My four year-old rambled off the entire Novena to the Infant King tonight (which we had no idea he had memorized on his own from hearing it every month. And no, that does not mean I think we're better Catholics than you).

If my four year-old can use "thee", "thy", and "henceforth", surely the teenagers of the world today can pray using the same words. Children are not idiots...neither are teenagers. I don't know why people don't give them just a LITTLE more credit.

Anonymous said...

Delena:
Of course, it does.

Anonymous said...

Anon 11:36 Said...

"Thine?"
"avail?"
"Beseeching?"
"clemency?"
"oblation?"
"vouchsafe?"

Can we further alienate our youth anymore by using words that haven't been commonly used in a hundred years or more?"
_________________________


What are we going to do when he/she/it finds out that the Mass is actually actually in Latin?

Talk about words that haven't been commonly used for a hundred years or more!

But on a more serious note, the point of the exercise was to contrast the content (or lack of it, in the NO version) of the offertory prayers themselves. Regardless of whether you prefer 'you' to 'thee', surely you see the that the difference is far deeper than that ... right?? This is like setting up a tent next to St. Peter's Basilica and discussing the differences.