22 April 2011

Good Friday



1925Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.stabant autem iuxta crucem Iesu mater eius et soror matris eius Maria Cleopae et Maria Magdalene
1926When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son.cum vidisset ergo Iesus matrem et discipulum stantem quem diligebat dicit matri suae mulier ecce filius tuus
1927After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own.deinde dicit discipulo ecce mater tuaet ex illa hora accepit eam discipulus in sua
1928Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.postea sciens Iesus quia iam omnia consummata sunt ut consummaretur scriptura dicit sitio
1929Now there was a vessel set there, full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar about hyssop, put it to his mouth.vas ergo positum erat aceto plenum illi autem spongiam plenam aceto hysopo circumponentes obtulerunt ori eius
1930Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.cum ergo accepisset Iesus acetum dixit consummatum est et inclinato capite tradidit spiritum

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

I visited the Oratory on Good Friday. Can you tell me if any of the Catholic grade schools or religious education programs teach latin?

What opportunities do children have to learn latin so they may understand the latin rather than have to carry around a bi-lingual missal?

Thank you.

thetimman said...

Well, I think that repeated Mass attendance over the course of a whole lifetime cannot exhaust the possibilities for meditation on the Mass, and cannot ever bring one to fulness of comprehension of the mystery of the Mass.

Our friends who love to tout the wonders of the Second Vatican Council point out that we needed an adult understanding of the faith, because what we had before was too childish. I can only imagine they think that Latin is easily grasped by children, or perhaps that the Traditional Latin Mass is the most "adult" liturgy. I couldn't exactly say.

But, all jest aside, there are some great programs to introduce your child to Latin. Check Sacred Heart Books, or Emmanuel Books for a program called Prima Latina, or Latina Christiana. This dvd and workbook program teaches the language, with an emphasis on ecclesiastical terms and pronunciation. It also has a series to teach Church hymns and prayers. There are others, too, I am sure, but that is what we have used.

And to bring the comment full circle, regular Mass attendance will teach them everything they need to know in a surprisingly brief time.

Anonymous said...

Allegri's Miserere Mei was enough to bring a grown man to tears last night. In my opinion probably the most beautiful piece of music ever written. The choir at St. Francis de Sales is truly amazing and the fact that they are all volunteers make it even more special. We are blessed to have Mr. Botkins and his expertise at the Oratory. We are in general very lucky to have such rich tradition here in St. Louis. God Bless the Institute.

I always leave wishing I was able to bring everyone I know and that they too could feel the enormous love and devotion that I have for the Oratory and its Canons. I know this is just wishful thinking, but.. I always think that if my family and friends (most who are Catholic) could just give it one opportunity they too would realize the impact of the Traditional Mass.

Anonymous said...

You sadden me thetimman. I ask a simple honest question, and you cannot even answer it without some snarky demeaning comment.

No, regular mass attendance will not teach children everything they need to know, particularly if their parents do not know the latin. Their parents use the bi-lingual missals and read in English. They do not "listen" to the latin and understand it.

They might learn when to kneel, when to say "amen," and when to stand, but they will not learn the meaning of the words.

How many of the people attending St. Francis actually can listen to the latin epistle or gospel, for example, and understand it without having to read the translation?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous writes: "Allegri's Miserere Mei was enough to bring a grown man to tears last night. In my opinion probably the most beautiful piece of music ever written. The choir at St. Francis de Sales is truly amazing and the fact that they are all volunteers make it even more special."

You must have been in the sanctuary.

I agree, but alas, the acoustics prevented me from hearing much of it. Why in the world is the choir positioned in the alcove rather than in the choir loft where it should be. Squalling children drowned out much.

Anonymous said...

You write: "But, all jest aside, there are some great programs to introduce your child to Latin."

Does this mean the Catholic Church does nothing in their parochial schools or religious education classes to introduce children to latin?

It seems to me that if the Church wants to be sure latin is learned, it would teach it in religion classes.

Who alerts parents to the programs you mention?

Marie Zivnuska said...

To Anonymous #4:

If you couldn't hear much of it, you should have scooted up. You had plenty of time. The Miserere Mei was over 10 minutes long.

I have a recording of the piece, and there's not a huge amount of "squalling" children. Everyone deserves to see/hear the fabulous combination of the TLM in that magnificent building with some of the most beautiful music ever written.

And as far as singing in the alcove goes, you should know that Allegri's piece is almost impossible to sing. We're lucky to have a director that is able to pull it off with a VOLUNTEER choir and a priest that allows us to sing it. The way the alcove is built makes it much easier for the person singing the high C's to hear others around her and tune to them. I don't know if that's the only reason the choir sang in the alcove, but I'm certainly thankful they did. Had they sung in the loft, perhaps the soprano screeching at the top of her lungs might have completely botched the whole thing up.

Anonymous said...

I was sitting close, just behind where the choir sat when not singing.

It seems that the church was designed for the choir to be in the loft. I suspect the soprano would not have had to screech (to borrow your word) at the top of her lungs.

Yes, the volunteer choir is to be applauded for its efforts!!!

HSMom said...

Anon 23:44...

You posit:

'No, regular mass attendance will not teach children everything they need to know, particularly if their parents do not know the latin. Their parents use the bi-lingual missals and read in English. They do not "listen" to the latin and understand it.'

I think regular Mass attendance can indeed teach children everything they NEED to know. But I would submit that children, or adults, do NOT need to be fluent in Latin in order to appreciate and benefit from the Traditional Latin Mass (TLM).

We do listen and rather quickly begin to understand many of the Latin words as anyone will learn a foreign language over time when immersed in it. For those portions we do not understand, but wish to, we do have the bilingual missals for reference. Personally I don't find it burdensome to 'carry around a bilingual missal.'

You go on:

'How many of the people attending St. Francis actually can listen to the latin epistle or gospel, for example, and understand it without having to read the translation?'

Few, if any, I would think, but what of that? Holy Mass is not about us. It is about the Holy Sacrifice, whether or not we understand a word of what is spoken audibly by the priest. But IF for 'our' part, we are forced to reach a little further up the ladder than the bottom rung for understanding, is not the Mass worth our efforts to gain in understanding?

Besides, and I think this is key, regarding our level of understanding the TLM, there is so much more to consider than just the Latin language itself. The sights--the priest reverently celebrating ad orientem assisted by altarboys, the people reverently praying--women veiled--as they assist at Mass; the sounds--the quiet among the people, the bells heralding Christ's presence, the choir/cantor singing beautiful sacred music, the grand crescendo of the organ; the smells--the incense reminding us our prayers are a sweet fragrance to God, and I could go on. All of this comes together communicating to our senses all that is holy on the Altar before us. As parents we can easily teach our smallest children to recognize and appreciate at their level what is happening on the Altar by what we see, hear, smell, taste long before they are able--or I am able--to conjugate a single Latin word.

I am learning Latin side-by-side with my children, using the same Latin program Timman referenced above. We enjoy learning the language and increasing our understanding of the words we hear and say at the TLM. But if we had no access to this material and had only the Mass as our guide to the language, it would be sufficient for our need, our 'need' being appreciation for the Mass, not fluency in Latin.

dulac90 said...

Annonymi,

Perhaps you should consider a shift in your paradigm. It may be a subtle difference, but experiencing the Mass with an understanding of what is occurring (a deeper understanding of every movement and prayer) can be far more liberating than getting bogged down with trying to hear what is being said.

Btw, I don't suppose you were also at the Oratory Wednesday morning?

Marie Zivnuska said...

Oops! I should have worded that better. Let me clarify.

It's not that this soprano would have had to sing louder in the loft; it's that she *wouldn't* have been able to stay in key. The transept's closed-in space and acoustics make it easier for the singer to tune.

The soprano singing that particular piece off-key would have been equivalent to Florence Jenkins as Queen of the Night in Mozart's Magic Flute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtf2Q4yyuJ0

No one would enjoy sitting through that.

This girl isn't Joan Sutherland, Maria Callas or even Mrs. Miller. <- Her "Strangers in the Night" is beyond compare (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV0MtVWIN8Y) .


That's too bad that you couldn't hear! But it makes sense, as it would be difficult for the sound to curve around to right behind where the choir was singing/sitting. Perhaps it would be better sitting across from where you were, on the right side of the church? Just a thought.

Anonymous #1 said...

I was sitting just to the right of the choir in the middle of the church. To be honest... I didn't hear a single child cry during the Miserere. That's not to say that there weren't any, (I know for sure that there were many) I guess I was just able to block them out during such a beautiful piece. I am not a musician or anything but for you to say that their "efforts" should be applauded is offensive. They were outstanding! They did a great job at what I am sure is an amazingly difficult piece.

Just to bring the crying children up again, besides the fact that I was able to completely block them out during the Miserere, it has been a very large problem lately in my opinion. Children will cry I know, but why are the parents not doing anything (bringing them to the back of the church, etc) to ensure they're not distracting others while they pray. It has been horrible the past few days. Parents letting their children eat, drop books, cry very loud for a very long time, run up the pews, sleep, etc... I am not a parent, but I honestly don't think I could allow this to happen if I was one. Children get the impression that Mass is a free for all with games and snacks etc.

Anonymous said...

I thought the Good Friday music was magnificent.
To hear the most beautiful music in the world being sung for THE purpose it was written is only the VERY best---sublime;
not on a stage, not in a Protestant church, not on a recording. We heard it sung on THE day in THE place and TIME for which the music was written.I am grateful for expert musicians who decide under obedience to clergy how and why they choose what they choose. Happy Easter Week to all of you in bloggerville.

Mempoit

Mrs. Sarge said...

Dear, dear Timman,

You are controversial by just quoting the bible...you don't even have to say a word.

Being at St. Francis de Sales Oratory on Good Friday is an incredibly moving and beautiful experience…in its entirety... from the reverence and care that Our Lord receives on the Altar, the heavenly music that comes from the voices in the choir, the occasional clearing of throats and from the cries of babies who are being comforted by their parents. We are alive at the Oratory…a vibrant and growing eclectic group, and I, for one, am happy that there are still some babies left in the world who are able to cry. Music to my ears.

--Just someone next to you in the pew.