23 August 2011

Stopping by St. Cronan on a Sunday Morning

You may or may not be familiar with the blog of a local Catholic who drops in at local Archdiocesan parishes for Mass and writes about what she sees.  The name of the blog is Snup's View from the Back Pew.  A friend was kind enough to send along a link to her most recent entry, on the local dissident parish of St. Cronan

St. Cronan is well-known to readers of this blog as the incubator parish for the excommunicated womyn"priests" Rose Hudson and Elsie McGrath and of Sister Louise Lears, placed under interdict by the Archbishop for various canonical crimes.

You can read her entire post at the first link above, but I wanted to point out some of the lowlights, with her post in italics and my comments following:

Father didn't wear a chasuble, but just an alb and a stole.  A clay chalice was used as well. 

I'm guessing Father knows this already, but just in case here is the relevant paragraphs from the General Instruction on the Roman Missal:

289. Among the requisites for the celebration of Mass, the sacred vessels hold a place of honor, especially the chalice and paten, which are used in presenting, consecrating, and receiving the bread and wine.

290. Vessels should be made from materials that are solid and that in the particular region are regarded as noble. The conference of bishops will be the judge in this matter. But preference is to be given to materials that do not break easily or become unusable.

299. Unless otherwise indicated, the chasuble, worn over the alb and stole, is the vestment proper to the priest celebrant at Mass and other rites immediately connected with Mass.

Our correspondent continues:

The ad libbing started from the beginning.  The Sign of the Cross had stuff add, such as the Spirit that sustains us. The Second Reading was from Paul to the People of Rome (so I guess the Romans not living in Rome don't count?)   And in a first, the Gospel was ad libbed.  Yes indeed.  Jesus is not the Son of Man, but the Anointed One.  I believe that changes the meaning of the passage somewhat...  Father used Eucharistic Prayer II and didn't ad lib the Consecration.
 The most shocking thing is that nothing really shocks-- although I admit to relief when I read that Father didn't mess with the words of consecration.  Thus one can hope in the validity of the Sacrament.


At the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist, Father invited us to gather around the altar.  At least I think that is what his hand motions indicated.  5 or so people came up.

Hands were held at the Our Father and the Sign of Peace was a free for all.  And nobody (but yours truly) knelt for the Eucharistic Prayer.  Everyone stood.

OK, so there are tons of liturgical abuses.  But man, that's all external.  What about the message, man?


Let's talk about the homily shall we?

Father did not give the homily.  A guy in a purple polo gave the homily.  He asked us if we have keys.  Keys are power.  The readings are about leaders and power, especially bindings and loosing.  The Government  has been too binding in the past with slavery, women, illegal aliens.  The Hierarchy of the Church has been too binding as well.  The Institutional Church has been binding towards gay and lesbians, divorced and re-married Catholics, and women. (My eyes...they roll)  The guy's sister got a divorce and the family had a funeral for the marriage. (Wha?)  St. Cronan's parishioners have loosed themselves from the Institutional Church (mmmhmmm I see)  Former parishioners have loosed themselves from organized religion and have found some spirituality (mmmhmmm).  What are we bound by? What are we willing to loose?

And, if you are wondering if Our Lord's Eucharistic Body and Blood were properly respected:

Oh.  And when I went up to Communion, there were chunks/crumbs of bread in the flat ciboria thing along with the hosts. 

Just another Sunday liturgy at St. Cronan.


Anonymous said...

Our Lady Catholic Church in Festus could also be considered one of these "incubator" parishes. I can remember well the "Rev" Rose Marie Hudson prior to her "ordination." It is my understanding that another former? parishioner is wanting to be a womyn"priest as well." Our Lady's is a very liberal parish were just about anything goes. Ad libbing is not uncommon as well as communion services where the sister (pastoral associate") takes the chair of the priest. I could go on and on. How are churches like this allowed to continue operating? How is His Grace not aware of these travesties? The priest also is incredibly against the TLM. Bishop Casey (liberal bishop that has been in Bolivia for many years) also has connections to this parish. Please, someone explain how things such as these can occur and the pastors not be reprimanded?

StGuyFawkes said...

We owe a great debt to SNUP for her reporting. I do hope she goes back and reports on what happens at the Low Mass.

The homily was more or less what I've always imagined. The detail that chills is the omission of the Nicene Creed.

The N. Creed was written so as to be a fortress against heresy. THe omission tells all.

Last thought. Could it be that this is a hoax and SNUP is making this all up just to see how gullible we are?

Below you will find my "review" of the High Mass at St. Francis de Sales written so as to tell all our St. Cronanites what dire things go on in a trad parish.

My review below:

"In the entry procession at High Mass the Canon with the Austrian accent is surrounded by a blue guard of fatima troopers who goosestep up to the altar. The prayers are mumbled in the ancient language of empire and bloody gladitorial arenas.

One prayer is called "The Secret" which demonstrates that this Mass is a conspiracy to persecute women, Jews, homosexuals and the ozone. Few if any know what the secret prayer says however there are those who say that in the fat tomes having ribbons tailing from their binding all the secret prayers can be found. Most of the secretive and quiet parishioners had copies of these books.

Holy Communion deliberately ommited the "handshake of peace" and when I attempted to hug someone just before the consecration I received incomprehending stares. After Mass I approached many families in the infernally hot basement of the Church. I noticed that all of the women were without make-up and yet were very pretty. Their arms and legs were mostly covered even in the heat. The most frightening fact was the number of children. The continuous breeding of the parishsioners made me run from the parking lot screaming 'Oh, so many little carbon footprints.' I went home and had a double chartreuse and climbed in bed comforted by the latest Dan Brown novel."

That's not how I see it but I'm sure that's how it's imagined in that little place on Boyle.

St. Guy

Anonymous said...

I sometimes wonder the same thing. It's been a while since I have attended a Mass at Our Lady but after reading about Pastoral Associate Sister Lears she reminds me very much of the Sister Patricia Murray who I believe is still pastoral associate at Our Lady. I always thought that these liturgical abuse problems happened in more rural parts of the archdiocese. Mainly due to the distance and a lack of connection with the Archdiocese, these parishes are left unsupervised and allowed to do what they please. It reminds me of the Baptist Church who may have three or more churches in the same small town, each with a completely different dogma, the pastor is in control. Essentially, the Pastor of these small parishes IS the church, or so he thinks. How something like this happens so close to the footsteps of the Archdiocese, I don't know, but someone needs to be help accountable. Thanks to grassroots efforts like this blog and the reporting of Snups View these problems can hopefully be made more public.

Anonymous said...

anon 15:28. another example of liturgical abuse in our rural parishes in the Archdiocese: http://viewfrombackpew.blogspot.com/2011/06/sacred-heart-crystal-city.html

Deo Gratias for St Francis de Sales Oratory.

Anonymous said...

I give thanks that parishes such as St. Cronan and Our Lady exist. The Church welcomes all.

Fenian said...

I assumed such things went on, but that begs the question, where is the Archbishop? Where is the vicar general?

I get the feeling that many Catholics have lost a great deal of confidence in the local hierarchy and it's not hard to see why.

Anonymous said...

St. Guy, that was wonderful. @ Anon 20:36, your comment would imply that truth is somehow subjective, which it isn't.

There have been, and are, many of these incubator parishes. I remember in the 90's the same at St. Elizabeth of Hungary Parish. Sister Carol SSND would provide a Communion Service on odd days of the week in place of morning Mass when Father Don wasn't available. I went to one once. It was amazing and I'll bet a real rush for her as it was the Mass entire but without the Canon of the Mass or the words of Consecration. Picture little Sister behind the Altar where you would expect the priest to be, and you have it.

Again, fast forward several years later after 911, we have Sister Streeter and her two Islamic guests in the Sanctuary with the audience in the pews in dialogue with those who hold fast to the Islamic way of things who are 'not as bad as all that'. Oh, not to mention the proselytizing and literature handed out in Church after the event.

Now, St. E's is in better hands these days than it was with the two Fathers whose reigns these fell under, but it is the zeitgeist of the age, and one that in my opinion is dying. And it should die. Kicking and screaming they wane while being methodically replaced by the wonderful men and women who are courageously, joyfully, and humbly fill the void.


Patrick Kinsale said...

Am curious what you all think of a priest leading a communion service at a school during the school day so the kids have the chance to receive Communion on a daily basis. A communion service was preferred because it saved time; the priest still gave a homily. My suggestion would be to skip the homily and have a Mass. Call me silly, but I think the consecration is the most important part of the whole affair.

BTW, my old principal could offer a Latin OF Mass in 14 minutes, back in the day.

Anonymous said...

OMG! Stup goes from parish to parish as a sort of individual jury and judge with the expressed goal of expecting to, and pointing out perceived flaws to Liturgical practices? There is something inherently evil in this, something so terribly wrong here, that I can hardly believe is worth any press whatsoever.

We all go to Mass on Sunday to pray, to celebrate with a community, and to have a Judas in our midst who obviously is NOT there to pray but to report is just so wrong on so many levels.

It must be horrific for some to see a priest praying from the heart instead of incanting some ritual as if it were voodoo.

The Eucharist is a prayer. Trying to force it to follow a strict formula without deviation is the exact same practice as voodoo - where saying precise words brings the spirits here.

I will keep Stup and this site in my prayers (not incantations from a language Jesus never spoke 1300 years ago) in hopes that they stop being so incredibly judgmental of people who are praying, and in hopes that they will come to the celebration of the Eucharist to pray - and not judge.

God help us all.

Anonymous said...

Sad. I have to say I like how the blogger simply posts the facts and can't be accused of being "judgmental" and all that. The facts speak for themselves. She seems to know what's right and wrong, nonetheless.

StGuyFawkes said...

Stray thought about the liturgical hijinks and improvisations at Cronans and the other "America's Got Talent" parishes.

Could it be that the problem is the lack of amateur theatre companies in these neighborhoods? The liturgies as described have a real "community theatre" flair.

Perhaps, if the Archdiocese would fund a production of "South Pacific" in each dissident parish all this would go away. I say this because I detect a kind of preeening egomania beneath all this "creativity" which is common among small town celebrities.

Maybe these folks need a poetry workshop. Or could someone buy them a kiln? (Although the latter might just produce more clay chalices.)

Just trying to be helpful.

St. Guy

Anonymous said...

StGuy -

Hilarious. Just goes to show how much a description, and even one's expectations, can skew someone's view.

As for your question about a hoax, I've been following Snup's View from the Back Pew for some time now, and everything is legit. You can visit her blog to se pictures of the wreckovated interior of St. Cronan's. Additionally, she has already visited both de Sales and the Oratory of St. Gregory. Here's a link to her description of a low mass at St. Gregory. If you dig around, you should be able to find a link to her high mass at de Sales. http://viewfrombackpew.blogspot.com/2010/11/oratory-of-ss-gregory-augustine.html

- YoungCatholicSTL

thetimman said...

To the anon complaining about 'Judases':

First, I don't think Tina goes around 'looking for liturgical abuses'. She visits, observes and writes.

Second, it is a tad ironic that a parish seemingly dedicated to disobeying Christ's Church and her teachings should fret over Judases. If you mean, however, that you would rather that people didn't know what goes on, I can understand that.

Third, you must realize that Christ deserves to be worshipped as He, not we, see fit.

Anonymous said...

Anon 21:57 - you nailed it. Your experience with Sister Carrol SSND was exactly mine with Sister Pat Murray OSF. She would sit behind the alter beaming with excitement as she had "her" form of a Mass. It was ridicules.

Fr. Andy said...

The primary principle of the virtue of justice is to render unto God what is God's, that being our full worship of the One who is creator of all. Certainly worship can look different in many places and times, but this stuff is narcissistic nonsense that only makes sense to a radical relativist in a culture that has a clock ticking quickly to the zero hour. The underlying precept in all of these abuses and rebellions appears to me to be a desire to sacramentalize immoral behavior. It's not about welcoming the gay, lesbian, divorced, et al; it's about full approval of whatever they do with their bodies. There is something very diabolical with the drive towards forcing the Church to accept sexually immoral behavior.

There is a home for everyone in the Catholic Church, but that requires one to abandon destructive and immoral actions. Why is this such a big mystery?

Anonymous said...

Fr. McAlpin - I respectfully disagree with some of your thoughts. Catholic worship should not look different in many places. We as Catholics should fight the devil in his attempts for us to smorgasbord our faith into something that suits us. If we do, how are we different from any other faith out there? The Catholic Church is one united faith not a free for all. True faith is not easy, sacrifices will/must be made.

thetimman said...

"The underlying precept in all of these abuses and rebellions appears to me to be a desire to sacramentalize immoral behavior."

Fr. McAlpin, that is as insightful a comment as I have seen. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

a continuation of my previous statement to Fr. McAlpin. These pastors are doing a grave injustice to the faithful they are assigned to by not representing the teaching of the One Catholic Church. Our Catholic hierarchy is doing Holy Mother Church a grave injustice by not ending this.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous 12:46:

I assumed that Father was referring to differences among the many beautiful rites of the Church. For example, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is very different from the Missal of Pius V. The postures, the language, the prayers, the readings are all conducive to proper worship; however, each of these is dissimilar to the TLM and its calendar and can be shocking to those unfamiliar with the ancient Eastern Rites. (I remember my grandmother once remarking that she felt like she had not been at Mass after attending a Divine Liturgy! It was very funny to me... given that that was the Mass of my youth.)

Lack of external uniformity in ritual is not _necessarily_ a problem... at least when one is speaking of the Church as a whole - which would, of course, include the Byzantines, Maronites, Melkites, etc.


Fr. Andy said...

To Anonymous...you added the word Catholic to my statement. I just said worship, which will look different in many places and times. That's just a simple fact of humans finding a way to praise God. Some will do it in a church building, others in a tribal setting in Africa, and many will sit in their rocking chair thinking about Jesus.

If you mean Roman Catholic Liturgical Worship, well then that is another thing. Pretty standard set of laws and principles. But even in that case, one can say the EF in Iowa will look and feel a bit different than the OF in Lagos, Nigeria. But, both faithfully celebrating according to the norms of the Church will be worshiping God in the Roman Catholic way.

I'm a Dominican, clarity and distinctions are inherent to my being! :-)

Long-Skirts said...

Anon. 08:08 said:

"We all go to Mass on Sunday to pray, to celebrate with a community"


Vestments of red
Altar cloth too
Martyrs who bled
Did this for you.

Gold Tabernacles
Veiled in red’s hue
Martyrs in shackles
Hung for this view.

Red mums full bloomed
In water and brass
Martyrs consumed
Burned for this Mass.

Red rays of sun
Rose-streak the nave
Their suffering done –
Now red we must crave!

Anonymous said...

Fr. McAlpin, why would we be discussing other forms of worship here? Sorry for my assumption, but I thought we were talk about the Catholic faith here.

Anonymous said...

Thank you, Fr. McAlpin.

To Snup's critics: Reporting that a pastor omits the Gloria and Creed in the liturgy is a responsible act for which we as Catholics should all be grateful. Keep in mind 1 John 2:22: "Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist." Kathy

Anonymous said...

To the Anon at 25Aug 9:04: So if a priest were to add a personal prayer to a Mass, or choose not to say both the Gloria and Creed - he is the "antiChrist???"

Again, it is voodoo worship to believe that saying the exact same prayers in the exact same way produces God's presence. That is the true narcissism here; thinking that one's proper actions makes Christ magically appear.

100 out of 100 times I would rather attend the Eucharist where a priest might pray from the heart. Seriously, it makes me think that the Mass said in America the day after 9/11 HAS TO BE SAID EXACTLY the way it was the day before, because, God help us, any variation means that Christ won't magically appear.

In my humble opinion, I think our loving God loves hearing prayers from the heart, rather than anthropomorphically being bored with the same, rote words, in a language he never spoke (Latin).

Jesus, we pray you enter into our hearts and open our hearts to the many, many diverse ways you make your presence known to us. Amen.

thetimman said...

God certainly speaks Latin. Jesus almost certainly spoke Latin, too. You will recall he spoke with Pilate before his Crucifixion, right? Because though your Bible is in English, they probably didn't use English. Their dialog being in Latin is more likely than it being in Aramaic, though both are possible, to be sure.

As to your "voodoo" charges about special words and magical appearance-- I'm sorry, but this exhibits such a (hopefully unintentional) misunderstanding of the Catholic faith and the Mass that I can't even address it.

Anonymous said...

Ok, so today I decided to go to the Old Cathedral since I was downtown and it is also the feast of St. Louis of France today. Wanted to go to confession and their bulletin says it begins daily at 11:30. Got there at 11:40 no confession was available. No one was available at all and Mass began at 12:10. Mass starts. Monsignor is wearing his chasuble and he is wearing khaki pants and tennis shoes underneath! Now, I know this shouldn't bother me, but regrettably it does. Mass begins and aside from the fact that he looks like he's got some place to be its good. The homily comes and I am expecting to hear a great sermon on St. Louis King of France. Instead he begins by saying today is the feast of the city. Goes on to say that the founding fathers weren't that great. Mr. Soulard never came to church, he just counted the money. blah blah blah. He was very down on the cities founders and on St. Louis IX as well. Homily is over, no creed was said. Right after the prayers of intercession, he gives another what i would consider homily about for about 10 mins on how the city owes its foundation the Mexicans and not the French. Where did that come from? The pre-communion prayer "Lord I am not worthy to receive you..." is skipped. I stand in the cattle line for communion and as usual go to receive communion on the tongue. Msgr. Billings rolls his eyes and flicks the Host into my mouth. I almost cried. I've never felt so out of place in the Church before in my life. It's sad. Please let us pray that His Grace will find a way to end these liturgical abuses. I needed to vent. ---Miss TLM

StGuyFawkes said...

Stopping by St. Cronan’s for Mass on a Snowy Evening

(With apologies to Robert Frost)

Whose church this is I think I know.
It’s run by a committee though
Who will not see me kneeling here
At a Mass become so very low.

My little child must think it’s queer
To mass where there’s not a Catholic near
Tai Chi in the choir and offertory dance
The strangest Black Mass of the year.

He gives his little rattle a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
But his alarm --lost in the clamor
Of gays and priestesses and glamor.

This church was once lovely dark and deep
But Catholics have promises to keep
And a Creed to say before they sleep.
And a prayer for heretics wherever they creep.

Anonymous said...

My family and I attended the Old Cathedral on the Feast of the Assumption last week and we must have had the same priest. He flew thru the consecration and had on ratty blue jeans under his chasuble (it didn't look reverant). My husband noticed more things he did incorrectly but I was too blown away by the blue jeans (as we sat in the front pew) to notice much else. IT was a huge distraction for me (esp since we usually attend TLM).


Anonymous said...

I'm glad that Snup enjoyed her 'slacker Mass' at St. Cronan, Sunday. Hope she will return to worship again with the St. Cronan community. All are welcome there - not just the 'liturgically correct'.

StGuyFawkes said...

Dear cdg,

It's not a matter of who is welcome, that defines the St. Cronan's problem, nor is it a matter of being "liturgically correct." It is a matter of whether the St. Cronan's community wishes to be part of the larger Catholic community, or in a word, wishes to be in communion with Rome.

The principal way Catholics recognize each other as Catholics, brown, gay, Asian or straight, is in an identifiable Mass which contains our mutually held beliefs.

The Cronan's Mass is not Catholic. Rather, it is a liturgy particular and specific to a chosen few who share a certain view of foreign policy, and a certain view of sexuality, and a contradictory belief that the Roman Church is centered not in Rome but wherever believers are gathered, even if their beliefs are contrary to the gatherings of Catholics elsewhere and everywhere.

The Cronan's Mass is a gnostic Mass for the ecclectic little ecclesia of the esoteric few who say they are Catholic because no one will stop them.

No. Not all are welcome. In any parish the welcome mat is the Nicene Creed. The Creed is not optional.

St. Guy

Anonymous said...

Since I am no longer an active member of the St. Cronan community (no longer live in the ‘hood’), the comments I make in this post reflect MY view of the community’s faith experience.

Surprisingly, I find myself in agreement with your warrant, but I disagree at almost every step, your defense of that statement. I’ll try to parse your premise.

-“It's not a matter of who is welcome, that defines the St. Cronan's problem…”

Well there’s our first disagreement. I don’t see a problem.

-“nor is it a matter of being "liturgically correct."

For St. Cronan’s community, that’s right. For Rome, for you boys at the Oratory it IS the problem.

-“ It is a matter of whether the St. Cronan's community wishes to be part of the larger Catholic community…”

Using the established definition of Catholic as meaning ‘universal’ or ‘containing the whole’, the St. Cronan community IS part of the larger Catholic community. Whether or not you approve is moot. The community expresses their belief in Jesus Christ, His teaching, His life by making Christ a part of their everyday lives, by taking Him to the streets - to act on His teachings. The community’s active commitment to His example - how to make those teachings alive and viable in this world, are simply different from yours.

-“…or in a word, wishes to be in communion with Rome.”

St. Cronan’s community would gladly be ‘in communion’ with Rome. The problem seems to be the Vatican’s insistence that all good Catholics play by its rules.

Follow what the bishops tell you, and you too can be a true Catholic. You don’t say the right words, you don’t use the right clothing, you don’t follow the script (not scriptures!), then you aren’t ‘worthy’ of THE CHURCH.

Okay. So be it.

-“The Cronan's Mass is not Catholic….”

You believe it isn’t, I believe it is. See the definition of ‘Catholic’ above. Relative to the modifier, ‘Roman’ in front of the noun, “Catholic” - you can have this one if you wish. Either way, I’m not going to worry about the semantics.

-“Rather, it is a liturgy particular and specific to a chosen few who share a certain view of foreign policy, and a certain view of sexuality…”

Mr G. you may be playing in the right court, but you’re using the wrong ball. If by ‘liturgy’ you mean, in its essence, ‘the work of the people’, well then - yeah, it IS particular and specific. St. Cronan’s liturgy speaks to God’s love and Christ’s teachings of His love….for all. In that respect, the liturgy IS Catholic/Universal. It is belief that God’s love is inclusive, is universal that the community has committed to “a certain view of foreign policy and a certain view of sexuality.”

In other words, the dog is master of his tail. Because God’s love is universal to all, we are called upon to action in our politics, in our commitment to the world as it exists, as aberrant as it may seem to you boys. It is not the other way around where as you apparently believe, “because they’re all sexual deviants over there on Boyle Avenue, they all want to change the Holy Roman Church to fit their crass needs”

“… and a contradictory belief that the Roman Church is centered not in Rome but wherever believers are gathered”…

Well… yes! Of course! Absolutely!

“The Cronan's Mass is a gnostic Mass for the ecclectic (sic) little ecclesia of the esoteric few who say they are Catholic because no one will stop them.”

I like this comment, MrG. Cute wordplay! One thing stands out in your statement: “No one will STOP them.” Your frustration is peeking out from behind your ecclesiastical construct, MrG.

“No. Not all are welcome.”

yes they are… at St. Cronan’s

“In any parish the welcome mat is the Nicene Creed. The Creed is not optional.”

Still trying to figure out where you get the idea that St. Cronan does not recognize the Nicene Creed. They just don’t make it the secret password for being a Catholic!

Gotta go. Mom's calling me to dinner.

In Peace and Wahoo


dulac90 said...

This is interesting, cdg. I am glad you have been willing to articulate your point of view here. At the risk of hijacking Tim's blog, I'd like to understand why someone taking your perspective would want or care to be called Roman Catholic? What differentiates your point of view from any other christian denomination as far as your relationship with Rome? Why carry such suspicion about authority, Canon Law, rubrics, etc., and still cling to the Roman Catholic Church?

Anonymous said...

For the two commentators who criticized the Mass said at the Old Cathedral - according to this site, what difference does it matter if a priest flies through the Eucharistic prayer, or goes at a snail's pace???

Seems the only thing that matters is that he says the exact words, without a bit of deviation, which magically makes God appear. Goodness knows that if he interjects a heartfelt prayer, suddenly the Mass is no longer RC.

I just don't know why some of you don't go into these parishes with protest signs and scream out each and every time a priest doesn't do the exact rubric you expect of him. It just seems like that would be in the 'spirit' of why you're there - to be critical, judgmental, condemning, and everything else as far from being Christian, much less Catholic, as you can be.


dulac90 said...

Speaking of critical, judgmental, and condemning....

Long-Skirts said...

Anon. 8/25/11 20:41 said:

"I stand in the cattle line for communion and as usual go to receive communion on the tongue. Msgr. Billings rolls his eyes and flicks the Host into my mouth."


We are St. Joan,
Philomena, Campion,
The Faith in its whole
Is what we do champion.

We are St. Margaret,
Pearl of York,
Where the bowels of the Faith
They tried to torque.

We are Sir More,
That's Thomas, the Saint
Whose reputation
They could not taint.

We are vocations
Now and kneeling
Adoring His presence
It's not just a feeling.

We are descendents
Of Saints and beggin'
To stop all the men
Who are turning us pagan!

We are the poor
Uneducated ones
But in faith well-informed
The heretic shuns.

And when we are told,
"Don't kneel anymore."
Since we don't hold doctorates...

We kneel and IGNORE!!

StGuyFawkes said...

Dear CDG,
I think we are just talking past each other. It may be that daring thrusts of the phrase such as “Gnostic” or “eclectic ecclesia” have thrown the discussion off the rails. My fault.

Let me try again. I don’t claim that the liturgy at St. Cronan’s or the Cronan’s community’s practice of the Faith is other than Catholic. What I claim is something simpler. I claim that without their recognition of the authority of the Archbishop there is no way of knowing whether Cronan’s is operating as a sect or part of the Universal Church.

The term Catholic, or “kataholon”, which means "according to the whole" doesn’t mean one big ark in which many types of creation reside. It means something deeper.

It means what one parish WHOLLY embraces the same fullness of Catholic Truth which every other parish WHOLLY embraces. That embrace of the whole and full Truth of Catholicism since the time of the Apostolic Fathers has had one condition: obedience to the teaching and disciplinary authority of the bishops.

This Catholic "wholeness" also necessitates the whole embrace of Catholic teaching on the priesthood, bishops and sexuality.

Of these the embrace of the Bishop's authority is critical.

There is a reason for this.

The Cronan’s community feels it is
passionately and courageously following the teachings of Christ. I agree that this is what they think and feel in conscience. The issue is what Christ are they following? Is it the Christ who violently threw out the money changers? Or is your Christ the meek and mild one who said “let him cast the first stone?”

Only the whole Church in mystical communion with the apostles is linked to the original Christ and so only the Church can insure that you are receiving the whole Christ which is in the whole Body of the Church.

If you decide that recognizing Rome and the chancery is unimportant you lose your link to the larger body of Christ which is your only insurance that your Christ is not something locally imagined by very charismatic, and courageous believers.

Without Rome and Lindell, your Christ becomes too small.

I know this is hard to grasp since the plodding ways of Vatican and chancery officialdom hardly seems like the Christ of Nazareth but that is where Faith comes in.

Now my argument to you which you only partially addressed was that in three stunning acts Sr. Lears and the Cronan’s community broke with the larger body of Christ which is the Church and which is the only Christ we have which we can be sure is not a product of our local enthusiasms.

I claimed that the Cronan’s community, 1.) supported the false and blasphemous ordination or two women, 2.) supports homosexual acts as moral and 3.) defied an interdict against Sr. Lear’s by offering her communion.

My claim was that these acts harm or destroy the parish’s connection with the larger Church by defying Roman Catholic doctrine around the role of Bishops, sexual morality and the priesthood. My claim is that this harms their only sure connection to the Christ of time and eternity.

You have more or less agreed that the St. Cronan’s community has little concern about the issues I have raised above and for that I thank you for your candor.
I’d like to thank you for the thought and time you have put into your responses.

St. Guy